It depends of what task do you have. If your computer is not using GPU and NVIDIA’s specific frameworks for professional use (I mean that you already make money with it) - then switch to AMD when you can. And if you don’t own something powerful like NVIDIA Tesla or Volta. It’s obvious that NVIDIA will not gonna release the drivers for macOS anymore. If NVIDIA is apt to release drivers - they will do it no matter the limitations, cause it’s their money and their hardware. No one can’t forbid to release the drivers for their hardware. But it seems that NVIDIA tries to fool around like it’s not their intention to loose macOS market. Even if it’s a small market, it’s money. So there are deeper reasons for not releasing the drivers and since it’s that, there is only one possible scenario - if CEO of NVIDIA will be fired and replaced. Then maybe some connections and business operations with macOS will be restored.
This doesn’t make any sense. Apple and AMD are completely separate companies, and ones that are already indirect competitors due to Apple’s foray into CPU design (the ‘A’ series ARM cpus used in their mobile devices), that alone already invalidates this premise. If Apple owned AMD, it would make sense, but that is definitely not at all the situation.
While it certainly benefits AMD, it is of no benefit to Apple to keep NVIDIA (or any GPU manufacturer, not that there are many more… Intel is about the only other I can think of) off their platform. The new Mac Pro has expandability out the butthole, to the point that it even has that proprietary PCIE riser card system. Having as many compatible PCIE cards, especially ones used for compute (OpenCL/CUDA) applications are a huge selling point to such a system.
These machines are obviously aimed at the very high end workstation market. This is the one market where GPU compute boxes make up a fairly sizable chunk. These are well-funded, cutting edge and emerging technology groups at universities or the internal R&D of massive companies that, in fact, would love it if they could buy a complete and well-supported system that was capable of cramming 4 x Tesla V100 cards in one box, and that’s exactly what the new Mac Pro would be…if NVIDIA had drivers available. AMD often just doesn’t cut it, especially for deep learning, primarily because that field has mostly abandoned OpenCL for CUDA. For better or worse, regardless of performance, there is a sizable chunk of the Mac Pro’s target market that Apple currently cannot even access entirely because there isn’t NVIDIA hardware available for it at the moment.
Why would anyone want 4 x V100s in one box? Especially considering those things cost $8,000+ each?
Because that equates to half a petaflop of compute performance in one machine. At least for deep learning applications. And the single and double precision performance is still amazing, at around 56Tflops and 28 Tflops respectively.
That’s 500,000,000,000,000 operations per second. If each operation were a star, you’d be able to fill 2,000 galaxies the size of the milky way in one second’s worth of computation.
This is just one galaxy’s worth of stars (4K needed for full effect):
Let that sink in.
This isn’t to run Crysis. This is so you don’t have to get Alzheimer’s, or die of cancer, or be one of the 3,287 people who will die in traffic fatalities today (and each and every day thereafter). Those are the stakes here, and that’s why NVIDIA can sell cards that cost this much: at $8,000, they’re a f–king bargain.
Ok, I kind of went off the rails here, but I can’t really think of any other way to even begin to convey numbers of this scale.
That kind of computing power that works with CUDA and all the deep learning, bioinformatics, fluid dynamics, meteorological, defense, electrodynamics, medical imaging, molecular dynamics, so on and so forth that relies on CUDA-specific software frameworks is hugely valuable, if I haven’t made that excruciatingly clear yet. Because to the right customers, it is totally worth it. Here is a list of those fields: https://www.nvidia.in/object/cuda_app_tesla_in.html
But sure, Apple was totally cool with simply giving up ever selling any Mac Pros to any of those customers who NEED CUDA because… what? AMD asked really nicely? There is no deal AMD could offer Apple that would possibly be sweet enough to make such a policy make sense. Apple is going with AMD because, in case you haven’t noticed, they don’t have anyone else. Intel doesn’t make ‘real’ GPUs, or at least discrete ones, so that leaves AMD and NVIDIA. And unfortunately for apple, neither AMD nor NVIDIA need Apple, but Apple definitely needs at least one of them. Having both would do nothing but good things for Apple, including simply giving them a better negotiating position with both AMD and NVIDIA.
Assuming Apple wants to do nothing except make as much money as possible, and if that is their goal, then intentionally limiting the GPU chipset options (especially for the new Mac Pro) simply makes no sense.
@metacollin, really well stated. I agree.
Developer Felix Schwarz
@felix_schwarz Jun 3
Doesn’t look like this supports graphics drivers at this point. Would be surprised if it ever does.
Who can point out the graphics driver support (if any) in this macOS Catalina Beta 4 DriverKit API?
Why Apple created Afterburner accelerator and with AMD built new GPU especially for new Mac Pro?
Why Apple support few well known developers to adapt their render engines to work on Apple Metal API?
Why Apple Nvidia based hardware still don’t run CUDA on OSX 10.14 and 10.15?
Why there hasn’t been any Apple product with Nvidia GPUs for a long time?
Vulcan on Windows with Nvidia GPUs does this already. Maybe it’s Apple who doesn’t want Nvidia to have access to low-level development.
The drivers are not perfect, but that doesn’t mean Nvidia are lamers. The reason might be quite different.
Apple doesn’t instal Nvidia drivers. Users do.
Any quotes to prove that?
These are all speculations, mine yours everyone’s. Unless we get an official statement from Nvidia and Apple we can just guess.
Apple wants everyone to have access to “their” low level api Metal. They want everyone to use it, Autodesk, Maxon, Redshift, Red, Adobe, AMD … Nvidia. It’s Nvidia who does not want nobody to look at their stuff. Check Linus words about Nvidia F*** You.
Nvidia have crappy drivers in High Sierra. Yes they work, but with ton of glitches, in Unreal Engine, the login was always glitched. Lot of times, drivers crash and glitches in all the app windows starts to appear. I guess this is because they do not work with each other.
Even the 780Ti with Mojave and the default Apple driver is crappy. Again glitches many times. No enough to not be able to work but enough to get tired of it.
Users complain to Apple about this glitches. I don’t complain in my hackintosh with 780ti, 970ti and 1080 but in my oriiginal Macbook Pro mid 2012 with 650m the nvidia drivers and cuda are crappy and I had several times complain to Apple in the past.
Nvidia has not supported RTX in high sierra and they have had more than year already to do that. So people with an RTX and Apple hardware are really fucked up because NVIDIA. No one else fault. And this is what tells me the whole nvidia drivers issue is NVIDIA’s FAULT. They suck at working with other companies.
I have an older mac pro 3.1 with an GTX 680 mac edition that doesnt work well with 10.13 patched as well
hopefully there will be some better support with catalina, i saw dosdude1 already pushed an catalina beta patcher out.
but with out the right drivers from nvidia the metal support and acceleration and quartz wont work well and will be laggy.
the mashine is good enough to work for some rounds with this gpu and with the ram it has installed.
but without the right driver support is will be the highest official supported os version so every thing keeps working normal.
Apple has abandoned nVidia because the 8600M was a chip with a 100% failure rate and nVidia dropped the ball on solving the problem. That’s it. That’s literally the only reason.
Sure it is. It means they can charge people anything they want for their one GPU option, and force people to buy a brand new computer every three years rather than get hardware upgrades.
You say that and then immediately turn around and disprove yourself in the same sentence:
Listen to me. Listen. No one, ever, will EVER make new cards for this system. Ever. No MOBO manufacturer is going to put a second PCIe slot concurrent with even ONE of their slots. Ever. They don’t care. They don’t care about niche GPGPU systems that need extra power. They don’t care about Thunderbolt AT ALL, much less TB3 or even USB 4. They won’t do it. Similarly, the two companies that make GPUs will NEVER make any new GPUs for this format. AMD won’t do it because only the Mac Pro is going to use it. nVidia obviously won’t do it because Apple hates them. And they won’t do it because PCs won’t use it, either. This system is for Apple only, and it’s for this Mac Pro only. There will never be any expandability. These two GPU options that Apple is offering now are THE ONLY ONES THAT THE MAC PRO WILL EVER SUPPORT. Two. Out of how many dozens of cards which exist on the market right now, and the dozens more which will be physically and electrically compatible with the Mac Pro in the first place? TWO.
Apple has completely priced itself out of the small business professional and individual professional market. The damn thing STARTS at the price for which the 2009 Mac Pro TOPPED OUT. No one is going to be buying this thing. As such, the market will be microscopic. As such, what incentive does anyone have to develop even DRIVERS for it? The very idea that nVidia would make standalone web drivers for its newer PC cards that just happened to be thrown into a Mac Pro was a fairy tale, yet they still did it. The drivers existed in a tiny window in time. Just a speck. We should be happy it happened, but it’s over.
Yeah, but really no one cares about SENS. When you tell people that to cure illnesses you need to stop caring about illnesses and begin to comprehend that aging itself is the disease, their eyes glaze over. If we could get people to care about the fact that we could have biological immortality within our lifetimes, we wouldn’t be having this argument. Almost all compute power would be dedicated to experimental protein folding and developing treatments to rebuild telomerase. And Apple, if they actually cared about people’s health as they claim, would be at the forefront of it.
And that’s why the new Mac Pro costs so much.
Again, Apple’s holding a grudge from a decade ago. The 8600M failed (I own a MacBook Pro that would still work today if not for it), and Apple didn’t like the PR hit from a hardware defect, and they were too cheap to just give people newer laptops that didn’t have the problem.
My question, in a broader sense, is this: Why doesn’t nVidia just flip Apple the bird and release the driver WITHOUT SIGNAGE BY APPLE? It wouldn’t be a problem on Mojave. I know that Catalina “forces” signage by default, but users who care about doing this would simply turn it off to run the driver. For example, yesterday I installed Catalina on my 2009 Mac Pro with a GTX 980 (and GT 120) in it. I’ve been stuck on High Sierra because I NEED access to ONE piece of software that the GT 120 doesn’t render correctly in Mojave… and the same is true of Catalina. If I had the nVidia driver, I could use my GTX 980 and this wouldn’t be a problem. Apple is intentionally crippling both its modern and older computers. nVidia needs to grow some balls and release the software without Apple’s “approval”, which it really doesn’t need.
True story is Nvidia don’t care too…
the answer to the question is
when ever the hell apple or NVidia feel like it
we never had a direct answer when we asked the same question about Mojave
I guess actions speak louder than words
so apple and NVidia replied to us with their actions
is obvious that both companies don’t care
I moved to windows, I like mac os software more
but I can’t honestly use inferior hardware on my system
I know many will disagree with me but I only care about what I think
because is my system, same way they can do whatever they want with their system
I feel much better having a nvidia gpu even if I have to pay more or use windows
I bought a amd gpu and I was furious, thought about buying the radeon vii
lucky I didn’t because I was eol just a few months after it was launched
then I was going for the navy 5700 xt just so I can use mac os
that is exactly what apple want me to do
but I don’t like the card design
to add insult ot injury the card still not supported yet on mac os and a driver nightmare on windows
most importantly for me no ray tracing support
so I pulled the trigger on a 2080 ti and left mac os behind after 15 years of using mac os almost every day
thank you mr cook for destroying mac os and the user experience
I can still use mac os if I want to, I can also update to Catalina
but I decided just to use windows because i’m not going to be swaping cards just to use mac os
I can use cuda and encode in 4k h265 and enjoy myself gaming in 4k and watching uhd 4k movies in my optoma uhd60 projector
much better than being tortured by apple monoploies
So, what about CUDA development? Right now it seems cuda developers (or learners like myself) stuck with 10.13.
Nvidia cuda compiler does not work with clang 11 (which Catalina uses).
AMD RX5700/5700XT now works in Catalina Beta:
Same answer as for the Mojave forum.
If Apple, as predicted move to Arm processors next year, with all that implies, there will NEVER be Nvidia drivers for their systems again, so the Hack scene will be gone, Intel will be gone, AMD will be gone.
Apple dont give a rats ass about you or your likes, dislikes, they just make money, selling phones, Ipads and the odd iMAC and MAC Pro.
Wake up, smell the soap and get on with your lives.
the only good news are for apple users and amd fans that will love to use those new gpu in catalina
those are not good news to nvidia users
honestly i don’t care anymore, i really like macos more than windows
but not enough to sacrifice my hardware and eat my dignity and swallow my pride
so yes i moved to windows and i’m not going back until nvidia is back
if it never happens so be it
then the same old urban legend about apple going ARM
this started as an april fool joke and ever since people be mentioning this for more than a decade
yes there is a big possibility it might happen one day
but as right now intel just cut the price in half on their cascade lake cpu
if intel continue to lower the prices in half then tim will love that
because they can make more money
so if apple didn’t do it when intel prices were up, i don’t see apple doing it now
another important fact is the fact that mac os is written using intel instructions set
to use arm they will have to make changes and modify the code to be compatible with ARM
again i don’t see apple going to all that trouble just for their little mac os market share
at the end of the day is apple loss anyway, is like they are doing it on purpose to kill the mac
they will use that as an excuse to stop making and selling the mac
when is really their fault because the lack of vision and innovation under mr cook
no one is asking apple to include nvidia chipsets or gpu inside their macs
but we should have the right to select if we want to use a nvidia card as an egpu
no one really knows if is apple that wants to control the nvidia drivers and offer them in the os and nvidia is saying no
or if is apple saying no to nvidia web drivers
nvidia don’t care because they sell millions of gpu to windows users
and apple don’t care because they sell millions of iphones
so they both saying to each other, we don’t need you
so since apple wants to go with amd for whatever reason
then i don’t need apple either, i can’t let apple decide for me
is my money i buy what i want and what i like and i don’t like amd
so i did what i had to do and moved to crappy windows
Gentlemen, something tells me that Nvidia does not plan to work on drivers for Apple macOS due to the lack of significant benefits. And Apple engineers do not plan to work on this because of the lack of an open api and open-source drivers (not crooked and oblique). The moment has come. Go to AMD
After this long, I highly doubt NVIDIA will be releasing any compatible Turing drivers, let alone Pascal. You’re better off sticking w/ High Sierra which is what I did.
I hadn’t realised this topic has been duplicated in this thread. I’ll post here too if that’s ok. I have been keeping tabs on the Nvidia drivers for Mojave situation, but now I’m posting as my situation has just changed big time and I’m facing a dilemma.
I have been running a late 2009 mac pro flashed to 5,1 with a GTX 980ti. Obviously stuck on 10.13.6.
Well the 980ti seems to have just died. It’s been randomly crashing during gaming using bootcamp recently and tonight it seems to have just completely died. Popped the GT120 in (which I’ve had for up updates and a safety net) and it all booted back to life.
I’m going to try testing the 980 in a friends PC tomorrow to confirm, but I’m not hopeful.
So the decision we have all faced on whether or not to switch to AMD is upon me now. If I stayed with Nvidia I’d go for a lower end card (although all lower end cards seem better now than my 980ti), so something like a GTX1060 for around £210.
I have zero knowledge of AMD cards and where I need to be looking in terms of price / power, which brings me to the next important point.
I work as a video editor so I rely heavily on CUDA, so moving to AMD is a concern in that regard. But is metal a viable alternative if Im running the latest MacOS?
If I am not mistaken, 10.14 has dropped support for MacPro 5,1 (or is it supported and only 10.15 has dropped support?) but isn’t there usually a way around this?
TLDR / Questions:
1: General consensus on sticking with Nvidia on 10.13.6 or switch to AMD?
2: If switch, what card would be recommended for heavy video editing (Premiere Pro).
3: Is metal comparable with CUDA for video editing?
4: Is upgrading to 10.14/10.15 possible for my 2009 5,1 using workarounds?